Today's Topics:
Felpham (and Gnosis, and a modern Blake)
Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Re: Felpham (and Gnosis, and a modern Blake)
Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Re: Re: An odd Blake sighting
Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Re: an odd Blake sighting
Re: Gnosis - knowledge
RE: Re: An odd Blake sighting
Critical reviews needed
Re: An odd Blake sighting
Re: Gnosis - knowledge -Reply
The Little Vagabond
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 10:51:59 +0100 ( + )
From: Paul Tarry
To: Blake Group
Subject: Felpham (and Gnosis, and a modern Blake)
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You can also get a bunch of Blake's paintings and stuff brought out
of the stores for you at the Victoria and Albert museum. There is a big
selection and several of the pictures I haven't seen reproduced.
Enjoy !
Whilst I'm typing I wonder if anyone (Pam ?) can point me towards
any studies on the Blake/ Gnostic/Kabalah connection. I've just
read "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels and she seems to say
that pre 1945 and the Nag Hammadi manuscript find we really knew
very little about Gnosticism. Given the connections it seems Blake
must have had some Gnostic texts to hand though.
The more I read the more I find that Blake wasn't working in a void,
on the whole this is a happy discovery. I was reading recently how
Blake was a pioneer who had found no natural successor, founded
no school. Well I have a nomination for a modern day follower, or at
least a writer working along very similar lines. Burton L. Mack has
nothing to do with Blake studies (or Blake) as far as I know but his
books about the making of christian myth are comprehensive attacks
on the veil. Infact they bury the christian myth absolutely and for all
times. No right minded person could open heartedly read his work
and then believe in the Christ myth as it is currently swallowed. What
freedoms are opened up when mysteries are put to rest.
Bad faith is a big problem, what you see is what you. Anyway viva
Blake and viva Jesus.
Paul
Jesus said "Be passersby"
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 09:49:26 -0500
From: tomdill@wc.stephens.edu (TOM DILLINGHAM)
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Message-Id: <98042509492642@wc.stephens.edu>
Mr. Tarry can check the archives of the Blake list to find several
previous (some ill-tempered) discussions of Blake and Kabbalah. He
can also track down back issues of _Blake: An Illustrated Quarterly_
wherein were published studies by Sheila Spector, especially, on
the possible Blake/Kabbalah connections.
Folks who enjoy "proving" that Blake fits perfectly into their
preconceived notions or that he was riding an earlier version of
their private hobbyhorses might do well to stop and think that
merely seeing two spherical orange objects does not necessarily
guarantee that they are seeing two oranges.
Tom Dillingham
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:14:58 -0700
From: Ryan Dulkin
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Felpham (and Gnosis, and a modern Blake)
Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980425231458.006ac108@sfsu.edu>
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On the Gnostic issue:
Try looking at the connection between James? Priestley, Pythagoreanism,
Thomas Taylor the Neoplatonist and Blake.
Harold Bloom in *Agon* argues that Blake's Gnosticism is coincidental to
Valentinus of Alexandra and Rabbi Isaac Luria of the Kabbalah. While I
might argue a stronger connection, I think this is a reasonable assumption.
On Kabbalah, Blake may have known about "Christian Cabala," which probably
has very little to do with real Kabbalah. I think one would be hard
pressed to establish a direct connection between traditional Jewish
mysticism and Blake.
Ryan Dulkin
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Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:30:59 -0500
From: tomdill@wc.stephens.edu (TOM DILLINGHAM)
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Message-Id: <98042521305899@wc.stephens.edu>
A postscript to the earlier post (which sounded kind of abrupt--nto
not my intention)--it is not quite accurate to say that Elaine Pagels
tells us that only since the Nag Hammadi revelations have we been
able to understand the tradition of Kabbalah. Her book, after all, is
focused pretty precisely on the problems the "Church Fathers" had in
defining the canonical gospels, which she sees as not merely a
theological or textual problem, but as a fairly enormous political
struggle between opposing views of how the forming religion based on
faith in and worship of Jesus should organize itself, especially with
reference to matters of hierarchy and clerical authority. What Pagels
tells us we can learn since Nag Hammadi is a clearer picture of that
struggle. Hers is a wonderful book, but for anyone hoping for special
insights into the "mysteries" of Kabbalah or of arcane early doctrines,
the book will not satisfy.
Keep in mind that Kabbalah has existed in various and multiply adapted
forms (adapted, that is, to the uses and preconceptions of the people
trying to use it) since the early middle ages. For a history and
analysis of its meaning in the tradition of Jewish mysticism, the
best possible sources are Gershom Scholem's _Origins of the Kabbalah_
and _On the Meaning and Symbolism of the Kabbalah_ (the latter used
to be available as a convenient paperback from Schocken, but may now
only be available in secondhand stores).
The uses of Kabbalistic ideas or symbols in non-Jewish European
literary works (as, for example, the possible use of them in
Blake) is an entirely different matter, though obviously it shares
some originating experiences. But as I remarked earlier, the
presence of a symbol (say, the "Masonic" compasses) in Blake's
work is not necessarily evidence either that he knew the tradition or
that he had absorbed its "original" meaning into his own thought.
While I think even Harold Bloom, himself, has revised his earlier
views somewhat, it is worth reminding ourselves of his comment in
_Blake's Apocalypse_: "One can pursue analogues and possible sources
for Blake's Albion and his other 'Giant Forms' at considerable
length, but I have never found a knowledge of Blake's supposed
esoteric sources to be of much use in reading _The Four Zoas_ or other
poems by Blake. Usually the hunt for those sources takes the place
of reading Blake's poems as poems. One can imagine Blake's
unhappiness at having a 'tradition' of hidden wisdom or a 'perennial
philosophy' substituted for the meanings of his very original poems,
but he owuld ahve understood, wryly, the tendency that attempts
'to realize or abstarct the mental deities from their objects.'"
(204).
Tom Dillingham
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:47:50 -0400
From: Paul Hume
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Message-Id: <35434916.310@lan2wan.com>
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Tom -
Just to nitpick...
> A postscript to the earlier post (which sounded kind of abrupt--nto
> not my intention)--it is not quite accurate to say that Elaine Pagels
> tells us that only since the Nag Hammadi revelations have we been
> able to understand the tradition of Kabbalah.
It would be thoroughly inaccurate to say that Dr. Pagels tells us any
such thing, since she is discussing the Gnostics, not the Kabbalists.
Nag Hammadi gave us previously lost mss. of the former movement, but the
Kabbalah did not suffer a literary "interruption" the way Gnosticism
did, and of course was preserved as a living school of thought in
Judaism to boot.
Regards,
Paul
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:30:52 -0700
From: Bill Franklin
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
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Hi Tom. About Elaine Pagels, I find her exploration of the history
of the early Christian churches to be truly facinating, but wholly
unenlightening as to Blake's sources. I've read the Nag Hammadi
texts, and there is nothing there that looks at all like Blake.
His gnostic sensibility seems to me to be his own.
Blake came up with a great deal which seems analogous to other
philosophies, but I don't think he studied them so as to encode
them into his poetry. I think the man was a genius in the original
sense, a poet who was fully capable of generating his own
metanarrative. We who struggle to be professional scholars are
encouraged to seek historical sources--and indeed they are
sometimes there, and sometimes enlightening. But to seek out
Blake's idea of gnosis in historical gnosticism is certainly to
miss the boat. As you point out, the hunt for historicity too
often takes the place of reading the poems. It might be more
useful to forget the boats and just swim in Blake's vast sea.
Bill Franklin
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 13:01:43 -0500
From: tomdill@wc.stephens.edu (TOM DILLINGHAM)
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
Message-Id: <98042613014348@wc.stephens.edu>
Paul is perfectly correct. I was scrambling words and not thinking
very accurately, but I should have prefaced the comments with the
concern that many do confuse Kabbalah with Gnosticism, especially when
trying to trace the "influences" in later literature (as in, for
example, Blake). The crossovers are both confusing and confounding,
and I apologize for a very muddled and confounding post. Tom Dillingham
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:56:29 EDT
From: SoCalSrFr
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Re: An odd Blake sighting
Message-Id: <34f1ee10.3543916f@aol.com>
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Hey, Blake fans. I'm very intrigued by One of William Blakes most famous poems
"The Tiger," which was featured in Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury. I read it
over and over, and I can't seem to find the true meaning behind it. If anybody
knows, or knows where I could find the information, I'd be very thankful.
Thanx,
SoCalSrFr@Aol.com
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 16:59:41 -0400
From: Paul Hume
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Blake and kabalah/gnosis
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Tom
> ...but I should have prefaced the comments with the
> concern that many do confuse Kabbalah with Gnosticism, especially when
> trying to trace the "influences" in later literature (as in, for
> example, Blake). The crossovers are both confusing and confounding,
That they are, especially when you get to the Christianized or
"Hermetic" qabala that Blake might have encountered - by then you have
the alchemists adding to the mix, magicians like Agrippa, et al. as well
as mystics in the vein of Boehme and Swedenborg.
Paul
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Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 19:45:42
From: Izak Bouwer
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: an odd Blake sighting
Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980426194542.56771df2@igs.net>
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On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:08:33 -0500
tomdill@wc.stephens.edu (TOM DILLINGHAM) wrote:
>The Arts section of today's New York Times (p. 12) includes what I=20
>assume is a reproduction of a poster that will probably be seen (or=20
>perhaps has been seen) around New York for some weeks to come, since
>it advertises the new Nicholas Hytner production of Shakespeare's
>_Twelfth Night_, which opens June 19. . . .=20
>the design of the poster is a straight steal (but with no acknowledgment=
,
>and no indication of the poster artist) from Blake's illustration to
>Canto 31 of Dante's _Divine Comedy_-
I agree with Tom that the illustration is a sure steal=20
from Blake=92s Dante illustration (#63) of Antaeus. =20
It was interesting to read the commentary of=20
Albert S. Roe (in =93Blake=92s Illustrations to the Divine=20
Comedy)=94 on the previous design (#62) of three Titans.
He relates these giants to the three Ancient Britons=20
in Blake=92s 1809 catalog description of his painting=20
(now lost) of that name. In a well-known passage
Blake states:=20
=93In the last battle of King Arthur, only Three Britons=20
escaped; these were the Strongest Man, the Beautifullest=20
Man, and the Ugliest Man ... The Strong Man represents
the human sublime. The Beautiful Man represents the
human pathetic, which was in the wars of Eden divided
into male and female. The Ugly Man represents the
human reason. They were originally one man, who
was four-fold; he was self-divided, and his real humanity
slain on the stems of generation, and the form of the
fourth was like the Son of God.=94 =20
Roe then comments:
=93... it should be clear that Blake intends to show here the
fallen forms of the Zoas.=94 =20
Roe identifies the Titan bound in chains with Orc (Luvah),=20
the Strongest Man. The Titan shown aged and bearded,=20
Roe identifies with Urizen, the Ugliest Man.=20
The third (Michaelangelesque) Titan who is shown younger=20
and with his back to the viewer, Roe sees as Tharmas, the=20
most Beautiful Man. The fourth Zoa, Los, Roe says is=20
represented, not by a giant form, but by the diminutive=20
figures of Dante and Virgil, the poet and his inspiration.=20
(Roe mentions that he here disagrees with Frye, who=20
- in a discussion of the passage from Daniel of the three=20
men in the furnace - identifies Orc as the Beautiful Man=20
and Tharmas as the strong man.)=20
The next design, the one to which Tom referred,
shows Antaeus as a handsome and youthful giant figure.
Roe says: =93This figure is one of Blake=92s best nudes,
and shows the influence of Michelangelo upon him.
. . . he recalls the figure of Tharmas in the previous
drawing.=94
This correspondence is of course not relevant to the=20
Twelfth Night design. To me the figure there look