Today's Topics:
Re: chaunted from lips of hunger and thirst -Reply
outcast thoughts.
binary blake.
Re: can i please be removed
Re: [3]RE>chaunted from lips of
Re: outcast thoughts.
Re: binary blake.
The Unfortunately Harassed Mr Vogler
re:chaunted...
Re: The Unfortunately Harassed Mr Vogler
MT conditional...
Re: MT conditional...
Re: Re: MT conditional...
Re: MT conditional...
Re: MT seasons and jewels
Re: can i please be removed
Apocatastasis -Reply
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:33:42 -0000
From: "Antony Auguste"
To:
Subject: Re: chaunted from lips of hunger and thirst -Reply
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My goodness, you people are so binary. Is it not possible that Blake's
work, indeed his entire ouvre, refers to both the mortal and the immortal?
At the same time? I would have thought this so obvious as to slap one in
the face. It is the tension, this frission between these coils that makes
Blake's work soar above the drudgery of this dichotomous debate.
Sorry, No Quotes To Justify My Ends, My Friends.
----------
> From: Andrewkauf
> To: blake@albion.com
> Subject: Re: chaunted from lips of hunger and thirst -Reply
> Date: 19 March 1998 06:44
>
> >"Blake's context is never the 'mortal world.'"
>
> >Paul.Tarry wrote
> >"Does this mean anything?"
>
> The context in which Pam used "mortal world" in her 3/17 posting is quite
> clear.
> The context in which I used it in response to her note is likewise clear.
>
> I apologize for not being able to resist seeing in the misplaced
smugness of
> this query Blake's "Idiot Questioner... who sits with a sly grin.../
Silent
> plotting when to question, like a thief in a cave." (Milton 41:12-14)
>
> Andy
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:28:36 +0800
From: Andrew Hageman
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: outcast thoughts.
Message-Id: <3511F074.9CCD2BF0@guomai.sh.cn>
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Hi Pam,
Thanks for your reply. This is only the second time I have joined
one of these discussion groups and I find it difficult. In a room of
strangers who are mid-conversation there is at least some body language
to indicate alliances, rivalries, and heirarchies. I am only a beginner
at Blake and found this group on the internet. Now I find myself
receiving all these messages which seem to be loaded for their specific
recipients. If you have time, I would really appreciate your opinions
of some of the contributors and of the general bent of past discussion.
One of the great dangers in living abroad is the absence of the
status quo; without social currents driving thoughts in certain
directions, one ceases to view oneself as pariah. I am a bit worried
about reentry.
Thanks for taking the time to write a welcome.
Andrew.
P Van Schaik wrote:
> Dear Andrew
> How reassuring to hear views expressed which I was beginning to feel
> like a pariah for espousing over all these years.
> Pam
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 13:47:35 +0800
From: Andrew Hageman
To: "blake@albion.com"
Subject: binary blake.
Message-Id: <351202F6.830A83C7@guomai.sh.cn>
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With regard to this debate about Blake's arena as mortal or immortal, I
don't think Blake separated the two. From plate 4 of The Marriage of H
and H, Blake wrote, "1 Man has no Body distinct from his Soul for that
calld Body is a portion of Soul discernd by the five Senses. the chief
inlets of Soul in this age."
When I read the first message of this debate I just assumed mortal meant
"subject to death; transitory." The concept of Soul is an infinite one
and if the body is indivisible then it must too be infinite. Visions of
eternal suffering and bliss depend on the infinity of the senses and the
body. Whether this infinite suffering is Blake's idea of Christian
judgment or a more Oriental samsara view, I am not sure--there seems to
be a lot of both. What Blake focused on was the infinite, therefore I
would say that he did not write about mortality.
At the conclusion of THERE is NO NATURAL RELIGION (b):
"Application. He who sees the Infinite in all things sees God. He who
sees the Ratio only sees himself only./ Therefore/ God becomes as we
are,/ that we may be as he/ is"
What I find fascinating is the way Blake explores diversity within the
infinite.
Andrew.
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From: "Antony Auguste"
To:
Subject: Re: chaunted from lips of hunger and thirst -Reply
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:33:42 -0000
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My goodness, you people are so binary. Is it not possible that Blake's
work, indeed his entire ouvre, refers to both the mortal and the immortal?
At the same time? I would have thought this so obvious as to slap one in
the face. It is the tension, this frission between these coils that makes
Blake's work soar above the drudgery of this dichotomous debate.
Sorry, No Quotes To Justify My Ends, My Friends.
----------
> From: Andrewkauf
> To: blake@albion.com
> Subject: Re: chaunted from lips of hunger and thirst -Reply
> Date: 19 March 1998 06:44
>
> >"Blake's context is never the 'mortal world.'"
>
> >Paul.Tarry wrote
> >"Does this mean anything?"
>
> The context in which Pam used "mortal world" in her 3/17 posting is quite
> clear.
> The context in which I used it in response to her note is likewise clear.
>
> I apologize for not being able to resist seeing in the misplaced
smugness of
> this query Blake's "Idiot Questioner... who sits with a sly grin.../
Silent
> plotting when to question, like a thief in a cave." (Milton 41:12-14)
>
> Andy
>
--------------57B0181B12518EFA92BDF049--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 98 07:30:49 CST
From: MTS231F@vma.smsu.edu
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: can i please be removed
Message-Id: <9803201333.AA20853@uu6.psi.com>
Send a message to blake-request@albion.com
Put the word unsubscribe on the subject line
On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:17:41 EST Tree23x said:
>i wonder if this is just going to get posted?
>
>if so,
>how do i stop getting all of this mail from
>all of these insightful people?
>
>t.
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:52:07 -0500
From: brackett
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: [3]RE>chaunted from lips of
Message-Id: <35129EB6.55CD@idt.net>
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What was that email address of Vogler's? ;)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:04:10 EST
From: TomD3456
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: outcast thoughts.
Message-Id:
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Andrew,
Don't worry. You're doing just fine, at least IMHO ("in my humble opinion").
--Tom Devine
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 98 17:26:43 GMT
From: Paul Tarry
To: Blake Group
Subject: Re: binary blake.
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Do you know the story of the Viennese school of logicians ?
No.
The Viennese logicians worked out a system wherein everything is,
as far as I understand it, a tautology, that is, a repetition, that is, a
repetition, of premises. In mathematics, it goes from a very simple
theorem to a very complicated one, but it's all in the first theorem. So,
metaphysics: tautology; religion: tautology: everything is tautology,
except black coffee because the senses are in control !
The eyes see the black coffee, the senses are in control, it's a truth;
but the rest is always tautology.
>>>With regard to this debate about Blake's arena as mortal or
immortal, I
don't think Blake separated the two. From plate 4 of The Marriage of
H
and H, Blake wrote, "1 Man has no Body distinct from his Soul for
that
calld Body is a portion of Soul discernd by the five Senses. the chief
inlets of Soul in this age."
When I read the first message of this debate I just assumed mortal
meant
"subject to death; transitory." The concept of Soul is an infinite one
and if the body is indivisible then it must too be infinite. Visions of
eternal suffering and bliss depend on the infinity of the senses and
the
body. Whether this infinite suffering is Blake's idea of Christian
judgment or a more Oriental samsara view, I am not sure--there
seems to
be a lot of both. What Blake focused on was the infinite, therefore I
would say that he did not write about mortality.
At the conclusion of THERE is NO NATURAL RELIGION (b):
"Application. He who sees the Infinite in all things sees God. He
who
sees the Ratio only sees himself only./ Therefore/ God becomes as
we
are,/ that we may be as he/ is"
What I find fascinating is the way Blake explores diversity within the
infinite.
Andrew.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:25:10 -0800
From: Chris Hahn
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: The Unfortunately Harassed Mr Vogler
Message-Id: <3512B486.625A@aonix.com>
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Hello All,
Is there any way that we can help Mr Vogler get off our list.
I am _sure_ I saw a recipe go by in the last couple of days....
....something like "mail to this eddress with this subject".
That recipe did not appear to "take".
We are still getting complaints from him about being in the group.
OK, good luck to all,
Christopher
P.S. I guess that I should add something (f/)blakey.
I once read a poem that I _think_ was by blake, but it may have been
another poet (def. a romantic brit.)
It concerned an angel that comes down from heaven and enjoys the
very "fruits" of life that were just denied a common man.
"Holy and meek am I" She said in response to his proposition.
What is the name/author of this one?
Anyone? .... Anyone? .... Beuller? ............
--
Christopher Hahn -- Software Engineer
AONIX -- San Diego Ca.
chahn@aonix.com -- http://www.aonix.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:18:41 EST
From: Andrewkauf
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: re:chaunted...
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>Antony Auguste wrote "My goodness, you people are so binary. Is it not
possible that Blake's work, indeed his entire ouvre, refers to both the mortal
and immortal?"
Blake's work refers to both but does not value them equally. He calls the
visible world "The dust upon my feet" and the like. His "eternal" or
"immortal" world is not pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die, but the dust or chaff of
the physical or natural world, transformed by the imagination into the
visionary one. This is why "eternity is in love with the productions of
time" and "generation [is the] image of regeneration." His thought is in fact
dialectical in important ways, unfashionable as this might be just now.
Rather than ignore or abandon the familiar, New Testament opposition between
soul and body or spirit and flesh, he writes his "Bible of Hell," which could
be seen as the totality of his work, by re-casting this as the opposition of
the visionary and literal, imagination and memory, the Bard and Earth, and so
forth.
Pam, thanks for your posting the other day. For all of Blake's fame over
the past fifty years (and Northrop Frye's incredible work), Blake's "perilous
path" often can be as lonely as it was in the 18th century. The main things
that seem to change are the shapes of the Spectre.
Andy
--part0_890425121_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 17:20:13 EST
From: TomD3456
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: The Unfortunately Harassed Mr Vogler
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Hi, Chris-
The poem you're referring to is "I asked a thief to steal me a peach."
--Tom Devine
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:23:07 -0900
From: ndeeter
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: MT conditional...
Message-Id: <351340AB.3406@concentric.net>
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Howdy all!
This may be a little late in the game but I have a question about
"Mental Traveler". Third stanza:
> And if the Babe is born a Boy
> He's given to a Woman Old
> Who nails him down upon a rock,
> Catches his shrieks in cups of gold.
And what if the Babe is born a Girl? Would this same--how did you put it
Mr. Andrew?--cycle of non-redemption exist? Is it contingent that this
Babe/Saviour is born male? Or perhaps Blake is imprecise in using if,
when he means the Babe is always born a Boy? Too many syllables perhaps?
Nathan Deeter
ndeeter@concentric.net
P.S. I'm eager to talk poetry and get away from the physics of Blake's
system. For...
"If it were not for the Poetic & Prophetic Character, the philosophic &
Experimental would soon be at the ratio of all things & stand still,
unable to do other than repeat the same dull round over again."
(conclusion from _There Is No Natural Religion_)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 98 14:15:45 -0800
From: Seth T. Ross
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: MT conditional...
Message-Id: <9803212215.AA04007@albion.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
"The Mental Traveller" depicts a complete cycle of human regeneration. Since
any babe can be either male or female, Blake cycles through both states to
form a unity. A boy is born in line 8 (Erdman), and then a girl is born in
line 44:
> His grief is their eternal joy
> They make the roofs & walls to ring
> Till from the fire on the hearth
> A little Female babe does spring.
I am struck by Blake's extensive use of agricultural metaphors in this poem.
"Just as we Reap in joy the fruit / Which we in bitter tears did Sow" (lines
7, 8) through "The trees bring forth sweet Extacy / To all who in the desart
roam" (lines 89, 90). In addition to a complete boy/girl cycle, the poem
presents two growing seasons -- it's possible to roughly map the poem's 26
stanzas to 24 calendar months. The boy is born in January of calendar year
one, cycles through "a Garden fruitful Seventy fold" to the next winter, when
the Female Babe springs from the hearth. This starts the second year as the
characters get lost in the depths of a "desart wild", a metaphor perhaps for
the dark dead depth of winter (January, February).
Continuing on the agricultural rift, I note the similarity between the
torture of the boy and numerous rites of initiation described in _The Golden
Bough_. There's also resonance with various agricultural rites associated with
both the planting and harvesting seasons -- look at how much rending,
reaping, and planting occurs. "And binds her down for his delight / He plants
himself in all her Nerves". Blake seems to be closely associating excruciating
mental cycles with both agriculture and the budding civilizations that it
enabled.
The poem can be read as a critique of the rise of fixed, controlling,
agricultual civilizations, with their emphasis on fixed position and
possessions, law, order, and ritual. This brings me back to the question about
the identity of the "cold Earth wanderers" who never knew the dreadful things
described in the poem. Could Blake be referring to pre-historic,
pre-agricultural peoples who wandered the cold earth in search of game? The
giants who have been bound down as certainly and cruelly as the plants, once
wild and now domesticated, at harvest-time?
Yours,
Seth
ndeeter writes:
> This may be a little late in the game but I have a question about
> "Mental Traveler". Third stanza:
> > And if the Babe is born a Boy
> > He's given to a Woman Old
> > Who nails him down upon a rock,
> > Catches his shrieks in cups of gold.
> And what if the Babe is born a Girl? Would this same--how did you
> put it Mr. Andrew?--cycle of non-redemption exist? Is it
> contingent that this Babe/Saviour is born male? Or perhaps Blake
> is imprecise in using if, when he means the Babe is always born a
> Boy? Too many syllables perhaps?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:29:04 EST
From: Andrewkauf
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Re: MT conditional...
Message-Id: <8a143501.35145b52@aol.com>
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I don't think it's ever too late in the game to talk about "The Mental
Traveller," since this poem is so hauntingly fascinating. As Seth points
out, the poem tells us what happens, beginning in line 44, if the little
bundle of joy turns out to be a girl: when born "she is all of solid fire/
And gems & gold that none his hand/ Dares stretch to touch her Baby form..."
But this turns out to be not the fire of the apocalypse, but more like the
gems of the Whore of Babylon/Enitharmon. "She comes to the man she loves" and
"They soon drive out the aged host," making him "A Beggar at anothers door."
She then seems to modulate into the "maiden" he can win, who inspires "The
senses [to] roll themselves in fear..." leaving "A desart vast without a
bound" (the reverse of the redemptive, visionary process through which the
"desart wild/ becomes a garden mild." ) And as "a woman old" she is the
crucifying sadist who "nails him down upon a Rock/ Catches his shrieks in cups
of gold." So this unfortunate cycle requires both sexes.
Seth's observation that agricultural metaphors pervade the poem is quite
important. Looked at within the context of Blake's body of work, these
identify the cycle here, or the mentality that perpetuates it, with vegetative
consciousness. The profusion of vegetation in the design for "Earth's Answer"
serves the same function there. Vegetative consciousness for Blake involves
turning the natural world into a fixed, objective, Lockean, external reality,
as well as reducing love to mere sex by seeing the beloved as an object to
possess. In other words, Lockean perception of the natural world and the
perception of a beloved as an object to possess and bind down are
interchangeable errors Blake. In "The Mental Traveller," "He...binds her
down for his delight" and "She nails him down upon a Rock" are equivalents.
Both are apt images or metaphors not only for the "dreadful things" the lapsed
sons & daughters of Albion do to one another, but for the way the "lapsed
soul" sees and treats whatever his senses behold.
Andy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 21:45:09 -0900
From: ndeeter
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: MT conditional...
Message-Id: <3514B375.5AC0@concentric.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Andrewkauf wrote:
> Seth's observation that agricultural metaphors pervade the poem is quite
> important. Looked at within the context of Blake's body of work, these
> identify the cycle here, or the mentality that perpetuates it, with vegetative
> consciousness. The profusion of vegetation in the design for "Earth's Answer"
> serves the same function there. Vegetative consciousness for Blake involves
> turning the natural world into a fixed, objective, Lockean, external reality,
> as well as reducing love to mere sex by seeing the beloved as an object to
> possess. In other words, Lockean perception of the natural world and the
> perception of a beloved as an object to possess and bind down are
> interchangeable errors Blake. In "The Mental Traveller," "He...binds her
> down for his delight" and "She nails him down upon a Rock" are equivalents.
> Both are apt images or metaphors not only for the "dreadful things" the lapsed
> sons & daughters of Albion do to one another, but for the way the "lapsed
> soul" sees and treats whatever his senses behold.
I had not noticed such a heavy dispersal of agricultural imagery and
metaphor. Well read, Seth! I applaude you! I happen to be studying
poetry of agriculture right now in a nature writing course and the
similarities between Blake and Wendell Berry here is, as you say Andrew,
haunting.
Wendell Berry's Mad Farmer must be Blakean, fully aware of the pragmatic
and the spiritual aspects of agriculture, but not at all attempting a
separation of the two. Both are equally important. The Mad Farmer even
reduces love to "mere sex," as you put it Andrew, though I'd argue
another place that there is nothing mere about sex. Its power and its
dominance is the fact that it can be either casual and disimpassioned or
sensual and intimate or anywhere in between and yet still fulfill its
fullest potential.
Seth, your quote of line 25: "He plants himself in all her Nerves," is,
I recognize now, very reminiscent of a shorter poem about the Mad
Farmer, called "The Mad Farmer Revolution." The last 9 lines:
...He tilled her carefully
and laid her by, and she
did bring forth others of her kind,
and others, and some more.
They sowed and reaped till all
the countryside was filled
with farmers and their brides sowing
and reaping. When they died
they became two spirits of the woods.
It's interesting that the Female Babe just "springs" up "from the fire
on the hearth" one day. There is no need to go through such agony as the
Boy Babe who is given to an old woman who nails him to a rock, binding
him, piercing him, cutting out his heart, stealing every inch of his
youth and innocence until she grows young and virginal and he, of
course, grows virile enough to "bind her down for his delight."
All she must do is "come to the Man she loves" and he takes over as the
active element here, pursuing her until she is the old woman, restoring
the male child to his infantile state. This is why I had glimpsed over
line 45, the female child doesn't seem to be the same kind of child
that's born at the first. She is merely a manifestation of the old
woman. Perhaps it is the feminist critic in me, but the sympathies of
the writer clearly stick with the boy child. If this poem is as circular
as we all think it is, could Blake not have begun with the birth of the
girl and seen her tragically grow old because of the man and then have
ended the poem with her reaping her revenge on the male?
Why begin where he did if this is so circular?
Nathan Deeter
ndeeter@concentric.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:27:06
From: Izak Bouwer
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: MT seasons and jewels
Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980322142706.3d17b14c@igs.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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I agree with Seth that there are seasons in _MT_,=20
but prefer to see the _MT_ cycle as a one-year rather
than two-year cycle, so that the Incarnation (birth
of the Boy) occurs in =91the deep of winter . . . what
time the secret child . . . descended=92 (_Europe_3), and
the Apocalypse (when =91He plants himself in all her
Nerves=92) in the spring. The state of Eden (when there
is =91eternal joy/ They make the roofs & walls to ring=92)
is in the summer, and the Fall (when =91the flat Earth=20
becomes a Ball=92) takes place in the fall. For six
months, from the Apocalypse to the Fall, Spirit is
dominant in Man and he is therefore spiritually awake,=20
but for the remaining six months he is in spiritual=20
hibernation, and experiences through fallen senses.
Much of the agricultural imagery is of Biblical origin,
in particular the activities leading to the =91Last Harvest
and Vintage=92 and the =91Supper of the great God.=92
Deeter, in his interesting posting, asks if the poem could=20
not have started with the birth of the Female Babe. =20
In the title of the poem Blake refers to =91Mental=92 (Spiritual),=20
and I think he sets out to follow the =91life cycle=92 of the=20
Spiritual Principle in Man. The poem is, however,=20
written from the perspective of the Natural. That=92s why=20
the Female Babe is described as =91solid=92 and the Spirit=20
growing to maturity as =91fading=92 (from the vision of the=20
natural eye), and why the tortures of the Male Babe=20
can be detailed.
The various images of torture in Stanzas 3 and 4 of
course evoke associations with Prometheus, Orc,
Dionysus, and Jesus. (The description is parallelled
in _Jerusalem_66.) But there is also the phenomenon
of consumption. The last line of the third stanza reads:
=91Catches his shrieks in cups of gold.=92 (The unsubstantial
shrieks are caught in solid cups!) We then read in=20
Stanza 5: =91She lives upon his shrieks and cries.=92 =20
I hold that we have here a poetic rendering of the suffering=20
of the Spirit as sustenance for the Natural. (And it brings=20
to mind the suffering of the Christians for the entertainment=20
of the Romans.) Later in the poem there are other images=20
of consumption: =91They [the =91gems & gold=92] are his meat=20
they are his drink=92 (Stanza 10); and: =91For as he eats &=20
drinks . . .=92 (the =91honey=92 of her Infant lips/ The bread &=20
wine of her sweet smile . . .=92 in Stanza 18). It appears=20
that the two principles in _MT_ feed off each other.
I find the use of images of precious metals and precious
stones in _MT_ very interesting. In Stanza 8 the =91Aged=20
Shadow=92 wanders around =91an Earthly Cot/ Full filled all=20
with gems & gold/ Which he by industry had got.=92=20
In the following stanza, Blake indicates the spiritual=20
nature of these =91gems & gold=92: =91And these are the gems=20
of the Human Soul/ The rubies & pearls of a lovesick eye/=20
The countless gold of the akeing heart/ The martyrs groan=20
and the lovers sigh.=92 (In particular, we meet again the=20
=91martyrs groan.=92) In my reading, these are the =93treasures=20
in Heaven,=94 foretold in Malachi 3:17: =93And they shall=20
be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make=20
up my jewels; and I will spare them . . .=94
When the Female Babe springs forth from the fire=20
on the hearth, =91. . . all of solid fire/ And gems & gold=92, =20
the fire is tainted with her =91solidness,=92 and the =91gems=20
& gold=92 of earlier are transformed into adornments for=20
her. These adornments are met with elsewhere in Blake=20
in the form of the glittering Serpent.
Izak
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 12:22:37 +1000
From: paxinod@mlc.vic.edu.au
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: can i please be removed
Message-Id: <199803230118.MAA13253@nexus.mlckew.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT
Hey who ever you are if you found out how to get rid of all these
psycho people please let me now how?
Thanks]
Danae Paxinod
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:45:33 +0200
From: P Van Schaik
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Apocatastasis -Reply
Message-Id:
Gloudina
Thanks very much for the clear outline, which rings true re the Blake I
contemplate, completely. While on Sabbatical a few years ago, I was
also researching Jane Lead among other writers like Pordage and this
weekend noted with interest references to Jeremy Taylor in Evelyn's
Diaries, Vol I ( which give a fascinating account of life in the 17th
Century when wolves and bears, bandits and boats were still
prevalent). My only quibble is whether Nature itself is redeemed since
this is the state of dross - the husk enclosing the divine sparks, which
surely must be cast off?
Pam
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End of blake-d Digest V1998 Issue #19
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