Today's Topics:
Re: Teaching the canon
Re: Teaching the canon
Re: Teaching the canon
Re: Altizer introduction
RE: Altizer introduction
RE: Thomas Altizer
Re : RE: Teaching the canon
KNOCK OFF THE SPAMMING.
The canon & Blake
The Sublime
Mistake
Blake and the Bible
RE: Altizer introduction
Jim Jarmusch's Dead Man and William Blake
Introducton: Sharon Doty
Unidentified subject!
Urizen, unfallen -Reply
Your chance to help a Linnell! -Reply
Re: Blake at MLA -Reply
Re: Blake at MLA -Reply
------------------------------
Date: 31 Jan 97 11:44:23 EST
From: Philip Benz <100575.2061@CompuServe.COM>
To: "internet:blake@albion.com"
Subject: Re: Teaching the canon
Message-Id: <970131164422_100575.2061_GHW120-1@CompuServe.COM>
Virginia (et al),
If you don't mind my butting in, here's my $0.02.
<< we should teach what WE like, explaining our choices, noting that
others might have been made and in the course of our instruction
providing some tools and approaches that students may take with them
WHATEVER THEY PREFER AND READ EVER AFTERWARDS. >>
While this sounds like a good plan (I assume for intro English
courses), in practice I don't think it holds up. Perhaps you and your
friends like books that students ought to be exposed to -- some within
the traditional canon, some beyond it. But that may not be true of all
other teachers, especially if they themselves were not exposed to
the central canon of literature.
I may be very un-PC to take exception with this sort of absolute
cultural relativism, but IMHO it is an inescapable fact that a certain
number of DWMs wrote literature that all students of higher education
*ought* to have some knowledge of. Am I misinterpreting your remark?
<>
Again, this sounds good as far as it goes, except when in comes to
defining the "arcana". Can any student claim to have an education if she
has never read (or seen) Shakespeare? If she knows nothing of Dante
& Milton, Wordsworth & Whitman, Proust & Kafka? (etc)
I certainly wouldn't argue against the need to 'complete' these DWMs
with a wider range of writers from other cultural backgrounds. But these
DWMs are inescapable in understanding our fin-de-siecle culture. Aren't
they?
Let's take a concrete example. When I first taught Freshman English
10 years ago, I read only fantasy & science fiction, and French lit.
Should I have taught only that to my students? You might argue that I
wasn't very well prepared to teach such a class, and you'd be right. But
even if I had "explained my choices" and so on, I think I would have
been offering a mighty limited world view to those hapless young
readers.
To get back to Blake (this is the Blake list, right?), I read nearly
all of the close to 100 books my Michael Moorcock, a top F&SF writer.
But how could I hope to really understand the deep symbolism of the
Eternal Champion caught in the struggle between the oppressive chains of
Law and the impulsive creativity of Chaos without Wm Blake??
Sadly, none of my teachers had ever taken the time, or the effort,
to introduce me to Blake. I had never read anything beyond "The Lamb"
and "The Tyger", and neither of these deeply.
Fortunately (whew! what a relief!) I discovered Blake a few months
ago and now I'm digging like mad, even rereading the Old Testament, and
reading Enoch and other apocrypha for background.
The point, though, is that my education should have *required* me to
read these things. Cultural relativism can be, and all too often is
taken too far. Georges Simenon or Sue Grafton may be fine crime writers,
but they are no substitute for Shakespeare. Who is?
So anyway, I'm another new kid on the block and I'll probably be
asking questions and shooting off my mouth a bit. If I go too far, just
lemme know, awright?
Oh, BTW, I've been reading a few Gothic novels and have a good grasp
of the Burkean notion of the sublime, but so far fail to see how to
frame the notion of sublimity in terms of Blake's poetry. Can anyone
help?
Cheers, --- Phil from the Ardeche
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:08:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Marcus Rudolf Brownell
To: blake@albion.com
Cc: "internet:blake@albion.com"
Subject: Re: Teaching the canon
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
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I'm a very new kid on the block (as my last post has shown) and I'll
preface this time by saying that I'm throwing out an opinion in the
spirit if inquiry rather than persuasion.
With regard to the canon, I, like Philip Benz, am very disappointed in the
fact that there are certain works I never encountered as an
undergraduate, leaving me more unprepared than I should be now in my
first (I guess now my second) term in a graduate program. My personal
gripe is that I was never really introduced to the Bible as literature.
Luckily a Blake seminar was offered in my last term as an undergraduate
and through Blake I have come to learn how important the Bible is as
literature. Is it just my personal experience or is there an irrational
phobia (redundant I know) about teaching the Bible in english
departments. I know, separating church and state is a touchy subject.
I've just read Stephen Prickett's _Words and The Word_ (title from my
memory) and he's gotten me a little fired up on the topic.
Here's my intended response provoking opinion: As far as requiring
canonical
works in English departments, the Bible has been marginalized to an
absurd extent and should be required for English majors.
Forgive my ignorance and love my enthusiasm. Thanks,
Marcus
PS: Is it possible to read Blake without having read the Bible? I'm
sure my response is known.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 17:31:38 -0600 (CST)
From: reillys@ix.netcom.com (susan p. reilly)
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Teaching the canon
Message-Id: <199701312331.RAA10058@dfw-ix10.ix.netcom.com>
Marcus,
You and Phil feel the way I do about exposing students to canonical
(and non-canonical) works--the more the better. You have convinced me
that I am not wrong to require the students of the survey class to do
more extensive reading in Wordsworth than I had planned. I think too
much is better than not enough. Thank you both for sharing (eeew,
that sounds so pschocozy...)
Susan
You wrote:
>
>I'm a very new kid on the block (as my last post has shown) and I'll
>preface this time by saying that I'm throwing out an opinion in the
>spirit if inquiry rather than persuasion.
>
>With regard to the canon, I, like Philip Benz, am very disappointed in
the
>fact that there are certain works I never encountered as an
>undergraduate, leaving me more unprepared than I should be now in my
>first (I guess now my second) term in a graduate program. My personal
>gripe is that I was never really introduced to the Bible as
literature.
>Luckily a Blake seminar was offered in my last term as an
undergraduate
>and through Blake I have come to learn how important the Bible is as
>literature. Is it just my personal experience or is there an
irrational
>phobia (redundant I know) about teaching the Bible in english
>departments. I know, separating church and state is a touchy subject.
>I've just read Stephen Prickett's _Words and The Word_ (title from my
>memory) and he's gotten me a little fired up on the topic.
>
>Here's my intended response provoking opinion: As far as requiring
>canonical
>works in English departments, the Bible has been marginalized to an
>absurd extent and should be required for English majors.
>
>Forgive my ignorance and love my enthusiasm. Thanks,
>Marcus
>
>PS: Is it possible to read Blake without having read the Bible? I'm
>sure my response is known.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:09:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Jon Winsor
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Altizer introduction
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Good to have you on the list, Dr. Altizer. I'm a graduate student
working on my MA thesis on Blake...
Although I'm the son of two Camus-reading baby boomer parents,
over the past few years I've developed an interest in the Catholic writer
Thomas Merton (I happened across him while persuing an interest in Eastern
philosophy and religions while I was an undergraduate.) Anyway, I'd be
curious to know what you thought of Merton's essay on your book _The New
Apocalypse_. As you probably know, Merton had a long-term interest in Blake,
and Joyce as well. And it seems like he took an active interest in your
work.
Again, good to have you on the list.
--Jon Winsor.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 17:17:48 +1100
From: Billy Horton
To: blake@albion.com
Subject:
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970201061748.0069b2f8@mail.cnl.com.au>
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Billy Horton
/ rwhpl@cnl.com.au \
\_billyhorton@geocities.com_/
IRC nick ~ BETTA
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 97 05:27:04 UT
From: "tHOMAS aLTIZER"
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: RE: Altizer introduction
Message-Id:
Ralph Dumain,
My Blake book is still in print so far as I know and even at the original very
modest price (less than ten dollars).
----------Tom Altizer
From: Ralph Dumain
Sent: Thursday, January 30, 1997 10:14 PM
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Altizer introduction
Prof. Altizer, I have been searching for your book on Blake THE
NEW APOCALYPSE ib used books stores for the past year or tow to no
avail. If you have any extra copies, I wish to purchase one from
you. Yours is one of the very few works conatingin comparisons of
Blake and Hegel, and though I have read a library copy, I need one
for my own collection. I think I have one of your death-of-god
books, but I can;t recall which.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 97 05:20:36 UT
From: "tHOMAS aLTIZER"
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: RE: Thomas Altizer
Message-Id:
Ms. Bouwer,
Thank you very much for your response. My Blake book is still in print and
even as I understand it at the original price (less than ten dollars for a
hardcover edition!). I shall try to snd you the "gospel" but there are many
requests and I may ask for mailing expenses. But we are in desperate need of
new theological voices and I hope that you will accept the challenge that has
obviously come to you.
Tom Altizer
----------
From: bouwer
Sent: Friday, January 31, 1997 6:24 AM
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Thomas Altizer
Dear Thomas Altizer,
I have already ordered "The Gospel of Christian Atheism" by
private e-mail from you, writing to the address with which
your name appears. If that was not the way to do it, I would
like to add my name to the list of people eager to purchase
your book. Like Ralph Dumain, I would also be eager to find
out where one could still find "The New Apocalypse."
You were responsible for me "discovering" Blake, a find that
subsequently changed my whole outlook on life. In the seventies
I was trying to find out what this "death of God" theology was
all about, and read "New Apocalypse." That book, and reading
Kathleen Raine's "Blake and Tradition" straight afterwards, set
my husband and me on a path of exploration which is still as
fresh as it was more than two decades ago. I never thought I
would be able to tell you this directly, but thank you, THOMAS
ALTIZER, you are an intellectual giant. I hope you will continue
reading this listgroup and periodically share your insights with
us.
Gloudina Bouwer (Ottawa, Canada)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 10:49:53 -0600 (CST)
From: John Hubanks
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re : RE: Teaching the canon
Message-Id: <970201104953.2026eafc@ualr.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
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Actually, as anyone who has been subscribed to this list for a while can tell
you, there are those among Blakeans who believe the Bible is not necessarily
a prerequisite for reading Blake. Personally, I believe the Bible is essential
to truly understanding not only Blake's works but also the cultural climate
in which Blake was operating. I just wouldn't want Marcus to continue his
study of Blake without the knowledge that nothing may be assumed, even (or
perhaps especially) among Blakeans.
John
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 14:27:17 -0800
From: Jean Mittelstaedt
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: KNOCK OFF THE SPAMMING.
Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970201222717.006fde14@toybox>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 05:17 PM 2/1/97 +1100, you wrote:
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>
>Billy Horton
>/ rwhpl@cnl.com.au \
>\_billyhorton@geocities.com_/
>IRC nick ~ BETTA
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------------------------------
Date: 02 Feb 97 00:47:46 EST
From: Philip Benz <100575.2061@CompuServe.COM>
To: "internet:blake@albion.com"
Subject: The canon & Blake
Message-Id: <970202054746_100575.2061_GHW45-1@CompuServe.COM>
<< Actually, as anyone who has been subscribed to this list for a while
can tell you, there are those among Blakeans who believe the Bible is
not necessarily a prerequisite for reading Blake. >>
I suppose one could also read "Rosencratz and Guildenstern are dead"
without ever having clapped eyes on "Hamlet", or _Finnegan's Wake_
without having read Blake. But there's reading and reading.
There has doubtless been a lot of scholarship done on Blake's use of
*alternative* scriptures -- apocrypha, pseudepigraphia and Gnostic
gospels. Some pieces like the Gnostic "Hypostasis of the Archons" look
surprisingly Blakean. What do we know about Blake's own reading in this
area? Can anyone point me towards any material with particularly
interesting links to Blake?
Cheers, --- Phil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 08:54:45 -0600 (CST)
From: reillys@ix.netcom.com (susan p. reilly)
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: The Sublime
Message-Id: <199702021454.IAA23292@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com>
A short while ago someone on the list requested & received a list of
works on the sublime. Would whoever it was be kind enough to post it
to the list?
Thanks,
Susan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 16:00:03 GMT
From: Chloe Gorman and Simon Kovesi
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Mistake
Message-Id: <199702021600.QAA01994@arachnid.btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Avoid this mistake again please.
----------
From: Jean Mittelstaedt
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: KNOCK OFF THE SPAMMING.
Date: Sat, 01 Feb 1997 14:27:17 -0800
At 05:17 PM 2/1/97 +1100, you wrote:
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>Billy Horton
>/ rwhpl@cnl.com.au \
>\_billyhorton@geocities.com_/
>IRC nick ~ BETTA
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Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 12:23:11 -0500 (EST)
From: kdick@interlynx.net
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Blake and the Bible
Message-Id: <199702021723.MAA29774@boris.interlynx.net>
Content-Type: text/plain
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I was interested to see someone begin a discussion on this difficult topic. By
the time I began my undergraduate work I was very well acquainted with my Bible
after years of Sunday School. Personally, I kept my Bible and my Concordance
next to me at all times when studying Blake. For other people in my classes, I
know that they had great difficulty understading what Blake was referring to and
we spent a great deal of time (which would have been better spent discussing the
poetry) to explaining BASIC Bible stories.
This is a hot topic among my peers and friends of mine who are teachers at
public school. With Ontario preparing to re-write public school ciriculum, the
topic of the place of teaching religious texts (not teaching religion) is much
debated. I don't think you could begin to realize the depth of not only Blake
but much of the Western canon without a working knowledge of the Bible.
I found that -Strong's Concordance- is the most complete. It is especially
useful for linking one Bible story with another.
Karen.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 97 17:48:59 UT
From: "tHOMAS aLTIZER"
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: RE: Altizer introduction
Message-Id:
Jon Winsor,
I apprecikate your work on Merton who once had a real impact upon me. And did
you notice that in his review of my Blake book that it had driven him to a
realization of his deeply Thomist ground?
Tom Altizer
----------
From: Jon Winsor
Sent: Friday, January 31, 1997 5:09 PM
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Re: Altizer introduction
Good to have you on the list, Dr. Altizer. I'm a graduate student
working on my MA thesis on Blake...
Although I'm the son of two Camus-reading baby boomer parents,
over the past few years I've developed an interest in the Catholic writer
Thomas Merton (I happened across him while persuing an interest in Eastern
philosophy and religions while I was an undergraduate.) Anyway, I'd be
curious to know what you thought of Merton's essay on your book _The New
Apocalypse_. As you probably know, Merton had a long-term interest in Blake,
and Joyce as well. And it seems like he took an active interest in your
work.
Again, good to have you on the list.
--Jon Winsor.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 11:42:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "Josh J. Hansen aka Bill Blake"
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Jim Jarmusch's Dead Man and William Blake
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Fellow Blakeans-
First of all thank you for adding me to your list. I do hope to
receive some useful information from your group regarding the 1995 film
Dead Man and William Blake. I realize I may be in the domain of some
intellectual heavy hitters so please bear with me. I am curious as to
what your group thought of the film and if you thought Blake's work was
accurately represented. This academic quarter I will be attempting to
decipher the references in the film and how they apply to the overall
dramatic structure. Any opinions will be welcomed as I am not a Blake
scholar but I must say Jarmusch has piqued my interest. Could you
suggest a definitive work of criticism that might apply? I have a few
Northrup Frye texts and his name seems to be coming up over and over in
my research queries. Any opinions will be welcomed and assistance is
greatly appreciated.
Yours,
Josh J. Hansen
n9410677@henson.cc.wwu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 1997 21:02:28 -0500
From: Sharon Doty
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Introducton: Sharon Doty
Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970202210142.0068e778@ramail.angelo.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
My name is Sharon Doty and I've just joined this list. I am a graduate
student attending school in San Angelo, Texas. This semester I'm taking a
course on Blake so I joined this group in order to be involved in
discussions on Blake. If I studied Blake while an undergraduate, it didn't
make a lasting impression, but the class I have now will be extensive. We
will only be reading Blake, Yeats, and secondary readings in the bible and
elsewhere as they apply. So far I've read the Songs of Innocence and
Experience, The Book of Thel, and The Daughters of Albion. Presently, my
most comprehensive readings have been The Nurse's Song, The Chimney
Sweeper, and the Human Abstract, but I'm still plugging along. I look
forward to being a part of this discussion group, and to learning more
about Blake.
Sharon Doty
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 1997 19:04:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Kerry McKeever
To: /william Blake
Subject: Unidentified subject!
Message-Id:
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Hello. My name is Kerry Ellen McKeever, and I've just recently joined
this newsgroup. I find the timing somewhat remarkable since, like many of
you, I have been influenced greatly by Prof. Altizer's work. I am an
assistant professor at the University of Idaho, their only romanticist and
primary critical theorist. I received my Ph.D. from the Univ. of
California, Irvine. My written work is interdisciplinary, and currently I
am completing revisions of a book entitled, . Such a title should indicate why Prof.
Altizer's work has so influenced me. An excerpt of the book appeared in
the Winter 1995 . I have an essay on Mary Shelley
appearing in the Fall 1996 issue of and an essay in
the September 1990 issue of . There's other
stuff too, but . . . enough. An anecdote: I took a course in Blake
during my junior year of college. I wrote an essay on Blake's "Mental
Traveler" for the course and received an initial grade of B. My professor
encouraged me, however, to rewrite the essay so that I could expand my
thesis and receive a better grade. i rewrote the essay twice, managing to
work my way down to a C on the essay. Blake must have chuckled from the
grave. Still, I am a babe in the woods.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 10:01:55 +0200
From: P Van Schaik
To: blake@albion.com, izak@igs.net
Subject: Urizen, unfallen -Reply
Message-Id:
Am coming in late on this topic as am now returning to work after a two
month break. The question was raised as to whether Urizen was the
equal of the other Zoas in his unfallen state and my asnwer to this would
be unequivocally YES. In Eternity , the four zoas in Albion ( as in every
other divinely human being , or Eternal) are completely in harmony with
one another, each creating visionary paradises in the soft, fluxile `fibres'
of Albion's being. Urizen, unfallen, like all the other Zoas, is completely
expanded into God's light and so cannot be less than they are ... in this
state, all the zoas resemble Jesus, according to Blake, appearing as
`One Man' in His image from afar. Only when seen from closer by, do
the myriads of Eternity appear as discrete individuals. As in the
Kabbalah, which tries to explore the whole perplexed issue of how a
good God could create a cruel world, Blake intimates that the `Eternal
Great Humanity Divine' who is the loving God of Eternity did not create
the fallen worlds of matter. He intimates that the process of the Fall can
begin at any time, in any Eternal, whenever the senses are not fully
expanded into God's holy fires. When this torpor ( or Sleep) overtakes
any of the Zoas, then the soul can lapse into the core of uniqueness, the
Selfhood and cease to behold the divine vision which sustains all in
equality and mutual love. Pam van Schaik, Unisa, Pretoria
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:03:29 +0200
From: P Van Schaik
To: blake@albion.com
Subject: Your chance to help a Linnell! -Reply
Message-Id:
Tim... I came across a fat two-volume , very old edition about Linnell in a
bookshop right opposite the British Museum last year. If I can find the
exact refs to this, I'll contact you again. It was a very readable ( that is,
not filled with stuffy jargon) set, and I was allowed to borrow it for a
few days by the owner. Pam van Schaik
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:28:25 +0200
From: P Van Schaik
To: blake@albion.com, brownell@OREGON.UOREGON.EDU
Subject: Re: Blake at MLA -Reply
Message-Id:
Marcus, I was interested in your comments re wanting to work on
prophecy as a genre. I certainly see that , for Blake, prophecy is central
in that he prophesies an ultimate return of Earth to her `Golden Age' in
which all beings will recover their lost divine humanity by casting off the
`husk' of matter along with the `mental chains' which bind them to a false
perception of their essential, eternal, natures. How, though, would you
set about discussing prophecy as a genre? I imagine this would have to
begin with, or at least deal with, the prophecies in the Bible and have
reference to Nostradamus and others such as Joanna Southcott ?
Pam van Schaik, Pretoira, Unisa
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 12:54:07 +0200
From: P Van Schaik
To: blake@albion.com, reillys@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Blake at MLA -Reply
Message-Id:
Further to the idea raised that there should be more conferencing on
BLake ... would anyone out there be interested in video-conferencing?
Here, at Unisa, we have video-conferencing facilities and I should really
enjoy meeting some of you in this informal way to debate whatever
interests you in specific Blake texts. For those paying in American
dollars, to conference with Unisa (my university), would be cheap ...
the last I heard, it costs us R450 an hour to use the facilities ... which in
dollars is about a fifth the price , what with the decline in value of the
Rand. Pam van Schaik, University of South Africa, Pretoria
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End of blake-d Digest V1997 Issue #11
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